Models: Attract Women Through Honesty

Category: Relationships
Author: Mark Manson
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by supertimbo   2019-11-17

This book is a pretty good start. Models: Attract Women Through Honesty

by jplewicke   2019-11-17

I'm really sorry to hear that stuff is still so rough. A few thoughts:

  • You've both got trauma histories, which makes relationship conflicts even more tense than they otherwise would be. It also means that you both probably lean on a lot of coping strategies that feel necessary but that are less effective at communicating what you're feeling in a way that is fair to both of you and not hurtful. So there's probably a lot of history of less than emotionally healthy events, which can provide anecdotes that can be cherry-picked to come across as emotionally abusive.
  • When it comes to stuff you've done, try to shift from shame over who you are (e.g. "I'm an abusive person.") to guilt/regret over things you've done (e.g. "That specific thing was wrong, I regret doing it, and I'm taking steps in life and in therapy so that I won't act that way in the future.").
  • As you learn and read more and start being able to process the history of the relationship, I wouldn't be surprised if you start finding more and more examples of things that your wife has done where the "relationship consensus" was that it was your fault, but that in reality she was treating you poorly and you just accepted it. You'll be reading a book or an article about how a certain thing is emotionally abusive and you'll go "Wait a second! That thing wasn't my fault in the slightest." So there'll probably be a process of rediscovery/reinterpretation of history. Just try not to pivot too far into making it all their fault, keep in mind that there's stuff you regret and are committed to changing in the future, and keep in mind that there were probably times that they made gracious and caring overtures as well.
  • Trying to grapple directly with our capability to be intentionally/unintentionally hurtful is really quite challenging and is best approached tangentially and one piece at a time. If you're just thinking "How could I be such an irredeemable monster in their eyes?" in a continuous loop, you're just going to retraumatize yourself and build up shame and resentment. So feel free to dodge around the question and redirect to specific questions of how you conducted yourself, how you'd like to conduct yourself, and how you'd like to make up for prior conduct that you don't endorse now.
  • One reframing of the situation that can help break you out of the loop of each of you going "This is your fault, you hurt me, you need to fix it." is to think of your goal as wanting to have a relationship where you want to be in a relationship with them and they want to be in a relationship with you. And that you definitely don't want to be in a relationship in which either you or the other person thinks that you're being abusive, or in which you think they're being abusive. Models by Mark Manson is a good resource for that reframing, as is his article Fuck Yes or No.
  • Another book for your growing list is Storms Can't Hurt the Sky, which is an account by a guy who had a rough sudden divorce and wanted to process it in a way that was honest and fair to both him and his ex-wife.
  • On the apology letter, I'd also lean against sending it. If there are recent events that precipitated her leaving and you regret your actions in them after talking them over with friends/your therapist, then by all means apologize for them -- once. If you've already apologized for your actions and feel like you need to apologize again or if you're going to go back through your relationship history and apologize for everything you've ever done wrong, then definitely try to hold back and not apologize excessively. You might want to look at the DBT FAST guideline for how to maintain your self-respect in difficult conversations like your current situation. The A stands for "no Apologies", and it can increase both your self-respect and the respect of the other person to try to avoid excessively apologizing.
  • If you don't have much money and you don't own real estate together and you don't have kids, then that can really simplify the divorce process. If you can convince your wife to go with it, then a divorce mediator can be a simple and cheap way to handle stuff. But if your wife hires an attorney, then you'll need your own attorney. I'd suggest first trying to find a mediator that seems reasonable, and then looking for a few divorce lawyers to have as backup options. Avvo has a decent lawyer search mechanism for finding them, and most family law lawyers will do a brief (30 minute) consultation over the phone or in person. If you find a handful of 4-5 lawyers that look good, you can probably get a decent assessment of your situation by talking to them.
  • Research your local alimony and divorce process laws so you know what to expect.
  • Having your detailed backup plan of what you'll need to do can feel reassuring -- (e.g. "I'd prefer to do couples therapy to work on the marriage. If your ex-wife doesn't want to, then I'd prefer to self-file/mediate/etc. If they go adversarial with a lawyer, I'll hire XYZ and will raise funds to cover their retainer by using a credit card/borrowing money from family/etc. If they accuse me of abuse, I'll hire lawyer DEF instead.")
  • /r/Divorce can be supportive/normalizing, even if it is understandably a bit of an emotional black hole.
  • I'm sorry this is happening, but it sounds like you're doing all the right stuff. Regardless of what happens with the relationship, I've got confidence that you'll be in a much better emotional place in the future from working on your emotional and relational skills and starting to address past trauma.
by followmarko   2019-11-17

Note: If you are here from the /r/bestof thread, which devolved into a lot of slander, please know that I am a genuine guy who would do what I can to help any of you become better men/people and feel better in your relationships with women and others. That's the point of this post and what I assumed we are all here for.

This is actually a great disarming tactic. Someone said further down in the thread that he ended up flattering the guy about his glasses. All bi jokes aside, everyone loves to be validated, and especially those pseudo-alpha male guys with tons of insecurities that are the most susceptible to this animalistic, territory-control behavior. I toss out a compliment if they have on a cool shirt, ask them where they got it, so on and so forth. I'll include them on a round of shots. We all become friends. By the end of what was their initial approach to talk to my girlfriend, they are saying what a cool dude I am and gifting drinks to us. Everyone is happy.

My girlfriend is objectively attractive as a petite blonde with some sizable warlocks [EDIT: this is from the movie Superbad] that draw a lot of primal grunts and attention. If she asks me if something shes wearing is too risque (due to said warlocks), I reaffirm her to go for it. I want her to feel comfortable with herself and express her sexuality however she deems fit for her. I love watching other dudes try and pick her up and I don't interfere with confidence. She can handle herself, and I can handle myself. I always tell her, if she goes home with him, I will 100% give him all the cash in my wallet and the keys to my car [EDIT: this is a running joke between us and not serious]. I am secure with myself and in our relationship. Today, I still have all of my money, drive the same car, and we fuck.

Comparing yourself to and concerning yourself with what others are doing is always a road to failure.

Edit: Story

This situation arose two weekends ago when my girlfriend and I went out for my ex's birthday. What would be a weird situation on paper ended up fairly advantageous for me. I personally think my current SO is hotter than my ex, but they are both successful, attractive women, as well as my ex's cousin who is of equal measure (and married). The women were all sitting at the bar together and I was standing behind them across the walkway talking to someone else.

A gang of bros rolls in and sees them all sitting at the bar. Pack mentality kicks in. The hunt is on. You guys know what that looks like, I'm sure. The routine "order a drink next to the girls and use that as leverage to talk to them" show was performed to no applause, but it worked. While they were busy assessing the situation, I finished up my conversation and rolled over. I said, "lets do birthday shots", and "do you dudes want to do shots with us too?" I don't say anything gut-reaction stupid like "hey these are MY WOMEN" (they aren't anyone's property) or "this is MY GIRLFRIEND". It was simple communication through action.

No gang of bros turns down shots. We all cheersed. I told one guy he looks like someone I see at the gym as we set down our glasses. We find out that we live a street away from each other. He introduces me to all of his friends. 30 minutes later, the whole gang of bros are now my friends, and bought several more rounds of shots even after it was leaked that I am dating one of the three and have dated two of the three. I overheard one say "oh, the one there is his girlfriend but he's super cool". Which, had I went in saying one of the aforementioned stupid lines like some jerkoff bulldog, his assessment of me would have been completely different.

I still see the one guy at the gym and now I have more friends, and again, am still fucking. Not all women are going to like you, but for the ones that do, be the best choice in the group because you are the best version of you, and you make others feel like they are the best version of them. No insecure, possessive chode horseshit needed after that point. It's magic.

Second Edit: Resources

Since this caught fire, some people have asked for resources on self-improvement. A few quick suggestions:

  • A therapist. Developing emotional intelligence is absolutely critical to becoming a better you. The one thing we aren't taught in typical schooling is how to deal with mental/emotional cues, events, and trauma. Therapy has a stigma where people believe that it's "someone telling me how I should feel". It's not. A good therapist is unbiased and gives you the tools and skills necessary to work through how you feel in a productive way for yourself and in your relationships with other people.
  • Models (by Mark Manson), No More Mr. Nice Guy, Hold on To Your Nuts, and as a bonus on how Frank Sinatra lived, The Way You Wear Your Hat. These books have some great insights into how to live as better men, through honesty, introspection, and genuine relationships with others, without jeopardizing who you are in the process.
  • /r/relationships and /r/relationship_advice. I read so much of those subs because it's real people dealing with real problems. You will easily find things you can relate to and think about here.
by computmaxer   2019-07-21

Check out the book Models by Mark Manson. He discusses this in depth.

by MostInterestingBot   2019-07-21

I also didn't like Mark Manson's TSAONGAF, but his previous book, Models: How to attract women through honesty, was a life changer. I mean, I'm still trying to implement the principles into my life but it already started to change my life for the better. It's not just for the single guys btw, any man who wants to be attractive should read this book.

by HornsOfApathy   2019-07-21

>These two things are related. Go and lift even if you have to drop weight to do so... just get out and lift something.

Roger. Did just so an hour ago. Feel much better already.

> You had a bad couple of weeks. So what? Just get back to it. Look at the bright side - you're probably still 10x better than before finding MRP.

Thanks. Something something forest for the trees. Right on brother.

> Yeah it takes work to be the Captain especially in your situation with your wife's mental issues. Just keep at it.

Pretty sure a Captain doesn't cut it with this woman and her mental issues. She requires a Fleet Admiral. Only makes me stronger.

> Wow, our lives go in a parallel here regarding no PIV for weeks.

How are you dealing with it both physically and mentally, if you don't mind me asking? Might help me.

> Outside of Game and Day Game, what other are good books for this?

I have heard good things about Models by Mark Manson. It's on my audible list to listen to. I like the idea of honesty in this book.

by iKnoeNothing   2019-07-21

Read the book "Models" It is a phenomenal book, providing dating advice.

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It is completely different than anyother I have ever read

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(Personally I got the audiobook)

Edit Here is a link:

Canadian Amazon:

https://www.amazon.ca/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1QTVJUWYV11A1&keywords=models+mark+manson&qid=1553619857&s=gateway&sprefix=models+%2Caps%2C218&sr=8-1

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American Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=models+mark+manson&qid=1553619910&s=gateway&sr=8-1

by ilovecockatiels   2019-07-21

I recommend you read "How to attract women through honesty" by Mark Manson.

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It mostly talks about self confidence and vulnerability. It will definitely change your life.

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I really hope you do read it. It changed my life and I hope it changes yours too. :)

PM me any questions if you have any.

by ar4s   2019-07-21

I would recommend the book Models, you can get it on amazon/kindle.

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=models+book&qid=1551543961&s=gateway&sr=8-1

by Makorbit   2019-01-13

You're putting a ton of value regarding your self-worth on the responses you're getting from other people. Confidence is the most fundamental factor when it comes to social and it's impossible to maintain when your self-worth is tied to something that fluctuates and changes from person to person and situation to situation. This makes you needy and prevents you from being someone who provides value.

Ok let's try and figure out what that girl did. She sounds like someone who doesn't base her self-worth on other people. She can enter groups with confidence because she isn't concerned with being rejected, and she probably introduced herself and gave people conversation threads for people to pull on. How often do you share your experiences, and perspectives in conversation?

> Should I just act inconviently and hope for the best, not worrying about denial because one of the interactions might work?

This might be the crux of your issue, that you think what she's doing is acting 'inconveniently for others'. Sure messing up the bathroom was a trashy, but her going to a party (where she was the +1 of the person who was invited) and providing value to people in conversation by sharing her story, perspective, and experience is not inconveniencing others.

Careful about doing the whole 'swing to extremes' thing. Let's talk about people who are assholes for a second. They're loud, they're obnoxious, they're not considerate, they seem narcissistic and rude. But for some reason people hang around them. Some people will see this and think 'Ok I guess I have to be an asshole in order to be liked socially', but that's a naive and simplistic perspective. The reason why assholes somehow manage to do well socially is because they exhibit traits that are a convenient byproduct of their toxic mentality. Because they don't place their self-worth in the hands of other people and believe in their own inherent self-worth they're able to do a few things. They provide value to other people in the way of content (perspectives, and experiences, notice a theme?), and are able to plow through the fear of rejection. Arrogant people believe they can't fail, confident people believe they will be ok in the face of failure. There is a very distinct difference between believing in the inherent value of your self-worth and behaving like an ass-hat inconveniencing everyone.

Recognize when your behavior stems from neediness or narcissism. You're upset when your friend gets complimented and you don't get the same attention, that's both of those. These two things are the things preventing any social success. I think the first few chapters discussing neediness are invaluable. It's worth a read even if you don't care about the "Attraction" parts, the social ideas apply to everything.

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by Caleb666   2019-01-13

Well, one way is to do it in baby steps, slowly exposing yourself to things that cause you anxiety. I can recommend Mark Manson's courses which rely on CBT (which has been proven clinically and used by psychologists) and his book Models . Compared to most of the published PUA literature, Mark is intelligent, insightful and his analysis is spot-on.

You can also try reading The Book of Pook (which is free), although it's long-ish and sometimes unclear, it basically echoes a lot of what Manson talks about -- about how changing your mindset and behavior will lead to less anxiety and more success with women (and other people in general).

by takemehomecountry   2018-11-10

You can try Models by Mark Manson. Or possibly No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover.

I've read the former and it's pretty much TRP self-improvement advice without the misogyny. I haven't read the latter but I think it's the same.

by keongmanja   2018-11-10

Mark Manson also wrote a really good book about masculinity: Model s

by [deleted]   2018-11-10

Honest evaluation: You have average looks. Not particularly handsome, but not bad either. I wouldn't have guessed you have Asperger's based on this picture alone. Reading behind the lines of your text and what you said it sounds like the actual issue is with your lack of self-esteem and lack of social acuity (which is, understanding social dynamics between people and how dating works).

One thing that people don't often know is that in attraction what are considered as primary attractive qualities between men and women are dimorphic. To put it very bluntly and simplifying the issue, men are primarly attracted to looks and women are primarly attracted to confidence and social status. Looks do also matter for women, but in lesser extent. There are variations and individual differences in all sorts of attractive qualities so the issue is rather more complex than that, but that is a good rule of thumb in general.

I would recommend finding ways to improve your self-esteem and becoming more confident in the way you carry yourself. It would be also beneficial for you to read about dating. When you have Asperger's, you don't often understand the sublities behind social behaviour. There are a lot of sublities and counter-intuitive psychology involved in dating and these are not apparent even to many of those who don't have Asperger's. Personally I'd recommend book called "Models" that is in my opinion one of the best (if not the best) book I've read on this subject. "Art of Seduction" also explains a lot of things more about attraction (including the reason why women become unattracted after they know that you attracted to them). You can probably find them as free online PDFs if you try.

by WhiteTigerZimri   2018-11-10

If you're a straight guy, dating apps and websites are tough as most of them have way more men on them, and men are usually much more active on them than women. For this reason I'd suggest making more of an effort to meet people in person, network and make friends. Online dating is fine as a supplement but shouldn't be your main method as it's just not effective for a lot of guys and the numbers are stacked against you.

Try local singles meet ups, speed dating events, and/or ask friends to set you up with anyone who might be suitable. If you go to meet ups that aren't for the purpose of dating, don't just zero in on the most attractive woman (or only the young single women) in the room though - that makes you look dodgy. Make sure you participate in the event and talk to a wide range of people regardless of gender, age and attractiveness. Besides, you never know which person could introduce you to your future partner. It could be the person you least expect!

Another thing you can do is get a friend or stylist to help you improve your grooming and fashion choices, to ensure you dress and present yourself in the most attractive way possible. A lot of men are terrible at this so if you make any effort at all in this area, you will probably stand out in a good way. If you can afford it, a good therapist or dating coach can also help you work through any blind spots and areas where you self-sabotage in dating.

I'd also recommend checking out this book: Models: Attract Women Through Honesty

by [deleted]   2018-11-10

I do agree with you but to an extent. I used to have awful social skills, was bad at reading situations and was very awkward with talking to girls. Never was an incel though, but I had so little success that I wanted to get better at it. I learnt those skills from PUA-material from Youtube and going out on a lot of dates. There is legit social psychology and self-development involved but it also depends on the teacher. I think the worst of the bunch are guys like Mystery whose methods are quite frankly shit and the guy is honestly a massive dickhead. On the other end of the spectrum I found RSD's Tyler and Mark Manson really helpful. For instance, his book "Models " is IMO one the best books I've read about dating. Many people here tend to associate PUAs with kind of manipulating sleazebags but there really is everything between manipulating sleazebags to people who teach how to have genuine and honest relationships with women without any manipulation or misogyny involved. In the end it's just one form of personal development that can be used for a lot of purposes and some of them are worse and better than others. There is a common saying in that scene if one is to leave a girl they should leave the girl in better shape than they found her.

In the end I got a lot better place with dating and in general with my life. I'm currently involved in the most mature and loving relationship I've ever been in. We both feel like we bring the best out of each other. She is an amazing person and I'm so happy that I found her.