The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (The Biblical Resource Series)

Category: World
Author: Mark S. Smith
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About This Book

Foreword by Patrick D. Miller In this remarkable, acclaimed history of the development of monotheism, Mark S. Smith explains how Israel's religion evolved from a cult of Yahweh as a primary deity among many to a fully defined monotheistic faith with Yahweh as sole god.

 

Repudiating the traditional view that Israel was fundamentally different in culture and religion from its Canaanite neighbors, this provocative book argues that Israelite religion developed, at least in part, from the religion of Canaan. Drawing on epigraphic and archaeological sources, Smith cogently demonstrates that Israelite religion was not an outright rejection of foreign, pagan gods but, rather, was the result of the progressive establishment of a distinctly separate Israelite identity.

 

This thoroughly revised second edition ofThe Early History of God includes a substantial new preface by the author and a foreword by Patrick D. Miller.

Comments

by ziddina   2019-07-21

>I still love the way they taught the Bible because it felt like a history lesson.

Hah. If only you knew what is really in the bible...

Perhaps these sites will help. You can follow along in your bible, or you can use the translation I strongly recommend, the "Names of God" translation, which has used the very oldest names pulled from the oldest available sources for the bible. Here it is online:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NOG

And you might want to read/peruse the following sources, using that translation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECezMYug8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

More resources: http://www.leighb.com/genesis.htm

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/cflood.htm

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion

I think the title page on this site is mis-stated. I suspect it's supposed to read "No Sign of Israel in Ancient Egypt". At any rate, it discusses a portion of the lack of evidence for the "Exodus" - from the viewpoint of the ancient Egyptian histories: https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/in-ancient-egypt-canaan-revisited-without-israel/

There are several good books on the subject. This book refers to scriptures that you can look up in a decent translation of the bible (hence my earlier reference to the "Names of God" translation) and confirm for yourself the traces of polytheism that can still be found in the bible: https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X

Then there's this book: https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949

There's also the Yale online course "Introduction to the Old Testament With Christine Hayes":

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi

That might keep you busy for a while.

by ziddina   2019-07-21

The Early History of God - Yahweh and the Other Gods of Ancient Israel: https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X

My review of another one of his books: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/5dvnsy/the_origins_of_biblical_monotheism_israels/

Did God Have a Wife?: https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949

You might want to check this one out from a library:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Manasseh-Child-Sacrifice-Alttestamentliche/dp/3110179946

by TooManyInLitter   2019-07-21

[Continued From Above.]

Can you, and more importantly, will you support your positive claim position(s), present an argument(s) and meet the burden of proof to support your claim(s), and then defend your argument(s) against refutation/criticism? And will you agree to follow some simple debate rules? If the argument fails for lack of credible evidence or supportable argument, and/or for logical fallacies, then the person making the argument never brings up that argument again with anyone. Ever. Additionally the person making the argument must demonstrate that they actually understand the argument(s) being presented - a copy/paste of an argument from someone else is intellectually dishonest if the presenter does not understand it. The definition of words commonly misunderstood, like "theory," will use Wikipedia definitions unless otherwise explicitly stated. Consider these Debate Rules as applicable to all parties when presenting your argument/post. Finally, be aware of these common logical fallacies when presenting your argument/claim/assertion as the use of these fallacies will significantly reduce, or outright negate, the credibility of your argument.

  • The difference between a claim/assertion and credible evidence or supportable argument
  • Circular reasoning. (e.g., The claims made in the Torah/Bible/Qur'an/Hindu Vedas (or any "Holy Book") are true because the Torah/Bible/Qur'an says so based upon the authority of the Torah/Bible/Qur'an/Hindu Vedas which says the Torah/Bible/Qur'an/Hindu Vedas is the authority.)
  • Begging the question
  • Special pleading
  • Argument from ignorance
  • Religious Faith that reduces to the conceit of subjective emotions/feelings/wishful thinking/"I know in my heart of hearts that this thing is true" as having a actual and supportable truth/fact value
  • Presumption/presuppositionalism

I look forward to your response. If you present a credible and supportable position, via credible evidence, and/or supportable argument that is free from logical fallacies and which can be shown to actually be linkable to this reality, to a level of significance (or level of reliability and confidence) above that of an appeal to emotion, I will consider your message and adjust my religious related worldview accordingly.

If you fail to present a credible and supportable position, then any and all argument(s) that you make that are dependent or contingent upon the above claim(s) will summarily be rejected for lack of foundation, as applicable.



Argument against monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism (ignoring discussion of the binitarian and trinitarian traditions)

The most foundational belief in Judaism, Christianity, Islam includes the essential attribute that Yahweh/YHWH/YHVH, God, or Allah, is that "God" exists and there is the only one true revealed God (monotheism) - or monotheistic Yahwehism. As this is the core of the Tanakh (Judaism), Bible (Christianity), and Qur'an/Koran (Islam), questions concerning the source of, and the validity of, this monotheistic Deity belief would raise significant doubt as to the existence of this God, the various Holy Book's validity as the word of God/Yahweh/Allah and to the very foundation of these belief systems. These core scriptural documents also establish the precept and precedent accepting predecessor society/culture holy scripture and documentation of revealed Yahwehism and integrating and propagating core attributes and beliefs (though with some variation and conflict with peripherals). Yet, within the Holy Scriptures of predecessor Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite, and early Israelite (Israel - meaning "may El [the God] preserve") religions/societies/cultures, the evidence points to the evolution and growth in the belief of the monothesitic Yahweh Deity from a polytheistic foundation of the El (the Father God/God Most High) God pantheon. Yahweh (one of many sons of El) was a subordinate fertility/rain/warrior local desert God whom, through a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) as documented in the revealed holy scriptures of these religions and cultures that directly influenced and/or became the Biblical Israelites.

For ones edification, here are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical polytheistic foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:

  • The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark Smith
  • The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith
  • A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong
  • The Religion of Ancient Israel (Library of Ancient Israel) by Patrick D. Miller
  • Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches by Ziony Zevit
  • Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Library Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies) by John Day
  • God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World by Mark S. Smith

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

[Character Limit. To Be Continued.]

by TooManyInLitter   2019-07-21

> Would you please recommend additional readings on the topic

Some references I have complied concerning the pre-monotheistic worship of pre-/proto-israelites and the God YHWH that I have previously posted.

A copy and paste ....

Would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh with evolution into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?

  • The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark Smith
  • The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith
  • A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong
  • The Religion of Ancient Israel (Library of Ancient Israel) by Patrick D. Miller
  • Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches by Ziony Zevit
  • Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Library Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies) by John Day
  • God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World by Mark S. Smith

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

by TooManyInLitter   2019-07-21

> I'm mostly focusing on polytheistic roots of Judaism

Don't mean to butt into this thread, but here are some references to the polytheistic origins of monotheistic Yahwehism.

[copy and paste from a previous posting]

And would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?

  • The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark Smith
  • The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith
  • A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong
  • The Religion of Ancient Israel (Library of Ancient Israel) by Patrick D. Miller
  • Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches by Ziony Zevit
  • Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Library Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies) by John Day
  • God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World by Mark S. Smith

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Plus a religious studies class: B425 Ugarit and the Bible; Quartz Hill School of Theology

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

by ziddina   2019-01-13

> Do you know of any channel that goes into details on this?

Several, and a few single videos from some decent channels, too.

Here in no particular order are the videos that prompted me to do more research into the real origins of the bible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg ...There's a "B" part video, but I like this one the best.

Here's an entire series about the archaeological information and what it reveals about the claims and sacred writings of the Israelite nationalists:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi

Here's one of my favorite channels. I'm linking his playlists; his 3-video playlist about the Book of Jonah is SO enlightening!

https://www.youtube.com/user/brettppalmer/playlists

I would also recommend several books. First of all, the book "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel" is high on my list:

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

Also "Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel":

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949

Those links will take you to other books which you may find interesting, too.

You might find these articles interesting, too:

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great-1.5392677

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-when-the-jews-believed-in-other-gods-1.6315810

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-jewish-god-yahweh-originated-in-canaanite-vulcan-says-new-theory-1.5992072

You might find the websites that discuss contradictions in the bible useful, too:

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/

Especially this article from that site:

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/

Then there are these sites:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://www.leighb.com/genesis.htm

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/cflood.htm

by ziddina   2019-01-13

"Gospel Fictions" by Randel Helms:

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0879755725

Also see "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel":

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

by TooManyInLitter   2019-01-13

OP, and anyone else interested, I have complied some references concerning the pre-monotheistic worship of the God YHWH.

A copy and paste ....

Would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh with evolution into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

by TooManyInLitter   2018-11-10

> Maybe my point isn't clear.

If what you wrote in the above comment is what you meant - then I agree that the point of the original submission statement was not clear. heh. As the original submission statement, at least how I read it, concerned the change (or 'evolution') from polytheism of many tribal-states to a monotheism of the God of Israel (YHWH) as a means to improve or support the cause of the tribe/state/nation of the 'emperor or a warlord in their plans.'

By the way, in case you are interested, there is quite a bit of history and historical assessment to support the 'evolution' or convergence of a large polytheistic Pantheon belief (the 'El' polytheistic pantheon, where El is the Father God/God Most High), and which included the second tier God YHWH/Yahweh, in the pre-/early Israelite societies.

Some homework for you OP :)

"You shall have no other gods before me” is tacit admission that there are other Gods, and that Yahweh is the top God in the polytheistic henotheism. And at the time of the authorship of this verse (Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6) the transition of the inherent polytheism of Yahweh worship in a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), which was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) was not yet complete.

Traces of the foundational polytheistic (many many gods, El is in charge) belief, and it's evolution into a man-driven politically and militarily motivated monolatry for Yahweh (Yahweh is in charge, acknowledgement of other gods) to monotheistic Yahwehism (where Yahweh is and, somehow, always been the one and only god “There is no god but YHWH/Allah”/“You shall have no other gods before Me"), litter the Torah and Old Testament of the Bible which survived editing and redaction. To a lesser extent (as it is based upon already redacted material and with better editing/explicit rationalizations already included) the New Testament and Qur'an also show linkages to this foundational polytheistic belief. Given that the tradition of monotheistic Yahwehism is the essential foundation of the Abrahamic Religions, this falsehood propagates to any/all doctrine/dogma/claims dependent/contingent upon this foundation - rendering the existence of this God, and these religious tenets/doctrine/dogma/"truths", at best, demonstratively invalid; and nominally, morally and culturally reprehensible.

And for evidential support, feel free to peruse the following:

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

by TooManyInLitter   2018-11-10

> I am not trying to have a low effort post, in all honesty,

No worries. But showing your current point of view and/or beliefs allows readers to better understand the context of your question to (hopefully) assist in providing a better contextual response.

Consider, if you want to, editing your original topic submission statement with some of the background you have presented above for all to see (easier).

> If he created galaxies and billions of billions of stars and planets, why should I question some of his reasoning behind things such as the problem of evil.

Blind-faith is not attractive. :(

> I wanted to find more questions and over time, see if I can find answers to them..or not.

Let me suggest a couple of questions (as homework) regarding what is considered an essential and foundational tenet of Christianity, and upon which so much of Christianity is wholly contingent/dependent upon:

  • Against the history of worship of the God Yahweh, is the construct of monotheistic Yahwehism supportable as an actual historical fact when extra-Biblical scriptures and narratives are including in the history of the God Yahweh?

  • Another question to consider - using the Bible canon narratives alone, what references to the development of the construct of monotheistic Yawhehism are present to support a hypothesis that Yahweh is part of a polytheistic pantheon of Gods and that Yahweh is not the highest ranked God in this polytheistic pantheon?

Here are some references concerning the history and man-driven development of Yahweh worship:

ere are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical polytheistic foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

The conclusion I reached when investigating the basis for my Catholic Christianity (YMMV):

Traces of the foundational polytheistic (many many gods, El is in charge) belief, and it's evolution into a man-driven politically and militarily motivated monolatry for Yahweh (Yahweh is in charge, acknowledgement of other gods) to monotheistic Yahwehism (where Yahweh is and, somehow, always been the one and only god “There is no god but Allah”/“You shall have no other gods before Me"), litter the Torah and Old Testament of the Bible which survived editing and redaction. To a lesser extent (as it is based upon already redacted material and with better editing/explicit rationalizations already included) the New Testament and Qur'an also show linkages to this foundational polytheistic belief. Given that the tradition of monotheistic Yahwehism is the essential foundation of the Abrahamic Religions, this falsehood propagates to any/all doctrine/dogma/claims dependent/contingent upon this foundation - rendering the existence of this God, and these religious tenets/doctrine/dogma/"truths", at best, demonstratively invalid; and nominally, morally and culturally reprehensible.

by ziddina   2017-12-06

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0195167686

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949

This site: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/

And especially this article: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/

This site is pretty good: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/biblehistorydaily/

I found these articles from that site very interesting:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/

by ziddina   2017-12-06

Adding these:

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark S. Smith.

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts also by Mark S. Smith.

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0195167686

Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel by William G. Dever.

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949

by TooManyInLitter   2017-12-06

nukeDmoon, step up your game! Just say "no" to low effort posts!

> I used to be christian as well.

And what are you now? And was there a compelling argument that started you on the path to be an ex-Christian? If so, what was it?

Also, what is the most compelling argument you posit to make a Christian (sect dependency??) doubt Christianity?

Join in the debate/discussion you started.

As for me, I don't make any arguments with intent to make a Christian doubt their beliefs. Instead, I encourage them to study the history and basis for the development of Judaism, and from there Christianity, using the Socratic method.

Here is an example: What is the history of the God Yahweh, and worship of Yahweh, pre-Babylon captivity/exile? In orther words, how did the construct of monotheistic Yahwism/Yahwehism develop into what is presented in the Bible and accepted in Christianity?

Here are some references on the growth of monotheistic Yahwehism from a historical polytheistic foundation to the development of the henotheism/monolatry, and then monotheism of early Biblical Israelites (you can make your own determination of the credibility of each reference):

While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:

  • Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible, by Michael S. Heiser, PhD

While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:

  • The Ascension of Yahweh: The Origins and Development of Israelite Monotheism from the Afrasan to Josiah by Andrew Halladay

Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:

  • Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods?
  • Ugarit and the Bible
  • Israelite Religion to Judaism: the Evolution of the Religion of Israel By David Steinberg
  • The evolution of God

A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.

Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....

  • Diana Vikander Edelman - The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms
  • Jan Assmann - Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel and the Rise of Monotheism
  • J. C. deMoor - The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism
  • John Day - Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
  • Andre Lemaire, et. al. - The Birth of Monotheism: The Rise and Disappearance of Yahwism

Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."

by ziddina   2017-08-19

> You also have teachings who's origin are not necessary Jewish but are Canaanite and mythology based beliefs showing up in Biblical prophesies.

Yup. Been there, done that:

------------------------------------------------Repost------------------------------

> It can't be proved either way...

Actually, it can be - at least in the case of the Abrahamic religions and their gods.

You'll notice I used the plural term there - godSSSSSS.

There are actually several gods - deities - incorporated into the bible's forms of worship. You won't learn about this from any Watchtower Society literature, because the Watchtower Society's bible "translations" fail to use the oldest manuscripts and information available nowadays. Plus, it's in their interest to keep average Jehovah's Witnesses from knowing that there are several gods incorporated into a supposedly "one" god, in the bible.

First, "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the YHWH consonants with the vowels of the title "Elohim".

There are two "names" for the Hebrew god, right there. Although if one traces the origins of the name/term "Elohim" back to its CANAANITE roots, one finds that "Elohim" originally was PLURAL, in the Canaanite language & polytheistic belief system.

From: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion

>The Canaanite pantheon was conceived as a divine clan, headed by the supreme god El; the gods collectively made up the elohim.

Then there's the Canaanite patriarchal god "EL" - as in Isra-EL, Beth-EL, Samu-EL, Dani-EL, and so on.

The OLDER Canaanite patriarchal god EL is deeply incorporated into the Israelite/Hebrew culture - and the bible itself.

Also, "EL" and YHWH are NOT the same god...

From: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/

>First, the name Israel is not a Yahwistic name. El is the name of the deity invoked in the name Israel, which translates: “May El persevere.”2 This suggests that El was seen as the chief god in the formative years of Israel’s religious practices. In fact, the etiological story explaining the origin of the name Israel occurs in Genesis 35:9-15, where Jacob obtains this name through the blessing of El Shaddai, that is “El of the Mountain.”

>Second, there exist numerous parallels and similarities between descriptions and cultic terminology used for El in the Canaanite texts and those used for Yahweh in the biblical sources (see below). At some point, it is ascertained, the cultic worship of Yahweh must have absorbed that of El, through which means Yahweh assimilated both the imagery and epithets once used of El.

And honey, that's just the tip of the iceberg. You may want to check out these two books which come at this information from two different viewpoints:

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949 ...

-------------------------------------------------------End Repost---------------------------------

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/40zvle/living_between_worlds_between_the_world_of/cz2co52

Also see:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/2x7yvz/meeting_attendance_a_question/coydtmi

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4bjgdr/ive_written_a_small_book_of_my_current_thoughts/d1a88et

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4wcj2x/subreddit_for_christians_who_are_exjws/d66svgx

by ziddina   2017-08-19

Better feed their minds with LOTS of logic, science, & research into the REAL origins of the bible, until then...

https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X

by Erra-Epiri   2017-08-19

Šulmu, /u/KlingonLinux! I gotchoo on "Canaanite" and Israelite (they were more or less the "same" people religio-culturally for most of Antiquity, and definitely genetically/ethnically) and Punic/Phoenician (Iron Age Levantine ["Canaanite" and Israelite peoples and so on] peoples abroad throughout the Mediterranean as far West as Southern Spain/the island of Ibiza and North Africa) sources, awīlu.

Some necessary clarification : I routinely put "Canaanite" in scare-quotes, because there was no definitive, proto-national much less national identity for so-called "Canaanites" in the way that Israelites and Judahites eventually had by the 1st millennium BCE, and the people of Syro-Palestine during the Middle to Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age would overwhelmingly identify and operate by clan, by tribe, or by city-state before calling themselves and operating as Knaʿni (Ugaritic, meaning "people of Canaan"). "Canaanite" religious forms consonantly varied quite noticeably by city-state, in ways that, say, Egyptian ones did not, even taking into account "alternative" (but not competing) Egyptian local theologies and so on. Speaking in perhaps excessively general terms, there was a State religion overarching the regional ones in Egypt which, in effect, bound them together as a cooperative dynamic unit. "Canaan" as such had no such large-scale, cohesive "religious infrastructure" of Egypt's much less Mesopotamian Kingdoms' and Empires' like, and it didn't "help" that the exceptionally powerful Egyptian Empire of the Late Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom Periods and contemporaneous Mesopotamian and Hittite Empires were constantly vying for control of the North Sinai and Syro-Palestine. The economic centers of "Canaan" were, indeed, frequently subservient to Egypt throughout Bronze Age history, with Egyptian Kings investing governors and mayors of its own throughout "Canaanite" territories following the Thutmosid Conquest, much to the personal danger of said governors and mayors (who were neither particularly liked nor trusted by their Levantine subjects nor by Egyptian officials) and much to the cantankerous chagrin of the Levantine peoples living under Egyptian Imperial rule. Which is to say nothing of Egyptian-mandated relocations of restive Levantine people and so forth.

Furthermore, Hebrew Biblical literature intensely confuses what "Canaanite" even means in a religio-cultural sense, using the term simply to inveigh against religious beliefs and conventions, regardless of actual origin, Deuteronomic Jews did not wish to see carry over from their ancestral religion(s)/culture(s) and from neighboring religions/cultures (e.g., Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions/cultures. See Leviticus 18, Deuteronomy 7, and Ezekiel 23 as but three illustrations of the aforementioned) into newly-minted Judaism and what had then become the Israelite-Judahite "national" identities (primarily in politically-motivated defiance, it should be noted, of their later Master, the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which had made of the internally-fractured Kingdoms of Israel and Judah satellite states through rigorous opportunistic military conquest and serious economic and political strong-arming, beginning with the great and cunning King Tukultī-apil-Ešarra/"Tiglath-Pileser" III). A few scholars and especially many would-be Revivalists not academically-trained frequently, unwittingly hang their understanding of "Canaanite" upon all this confusion -- and the latter not in anything like a Jewish context nor through a Jewish hermeneutic, either, while still treating iffy Jewish accounts embedded in Scripture entirely too literally, which makes it an even more weird and defunct confusion.

Now, it's very important to form a baseline understanding of the historical circumstances of the Near East concerning "Canaan," what came out of it, its influential neighbors, and religio-cultural receptors. I know it feels like unnecessary drudgery to many people, but the religious tidbits don't make much sense and their use in/continued relevance to Modernity can't be adequately evaluated without learning and understanding their historical contexts, which is where a lot of would-be Revivalists go very wrong, in my opinion -- especially since "Canaanite" and other non-Kemetic ANE religious Revivals are still very much in their formative stages and aren't being led by people with necessary, thorough backgrounds in Ancient Near Eastern Studies. For this, I recommend beginning with Donald B. Redford's Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times , Marc Van De Mieroop's A History of the Ancient Near East: ca. 3000 to 323 BC , Amanda H. Podany's Brotherhood of Kings: How International Relations Shaped the Ancient Near East , and Mark Woolmer's Ancient Phoenicia: An Introduction . They're not short texts, apart from Woolmer's that is, but they will give you a decent, fairly comprehensive understanding of the circumstances of the ANE.

Concerning "Canaanite" and Israelite, etc., religious details and developments, just about anything by Mark S. Smith, Rainer Albertz (namely, this massive text he co-authored with Rüdiger Schmitt), Daniel E. Fleming, and Dennis Pardee are quite sound.

Stories from Ancient Canaan, 2nd Edition edited by Mark S. Smith and Michael D. Coogan is probably where you're looking to start vis-a-vis "Canaanite" religion(s), as most people like to get at the mythic material first and foremost. After that, I would definitely recommend picking up The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (Biblical Resource Series) , along with Pardee's Ritual and Cult at Ugarit (Writings from the Ancient World) and Nicolas Wyatt's Religious Texts from Ugarit -- there should be a free PDF of the latter still floating around the nets somewhere.

While William Foxwell Albright has since become outdated in areas, his works are nevertheless necessary, now "classic" reads. Of particular use and importance is his Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: An Historical Analysis of Two Contrasting Faiths

Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan by John Day and the Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, Second Edition are handy, but relatively scarce and expensive.

Tryggve N. D. Mettinger is a much-beloved scholar of mine, though be aware that in The Riddle of the Resurrection: "Dying and Rising Gods" in the Ancient Near East -- one of the very few decent and comprehensive texts in ANE "comparative religious studies" -- wherein he addresses a few major Levantine Gods like Ba'l-Hadad, he unfortunately demonstrates a very poor comprehension of Greek, so if you ever pick that title up please do remember to take his interpretations in the chapter concerning the Phoenician God Melqart with a metric ton of salt.

Aaron J. Brody's Each Man Cried Out to His God: The Specialized Religion of Canaanite and Phoenician Seafarers was a short, widely-accessible, and enjoyable volume; he covers quite a few lesser-known and under-explored elements of Levantine religions therein.

It sounds like a lot, I'm sure, and there's so much more to read and discuss beyond all these, but hopefully this will provide a decent springboard for you into the crazy, wonderful world of Levantine religions.

I hope this helped, and if you need anything else on this, or concerning Mesopotamia and Egypt, feel free to ask anytime.