The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (The Biblical Resource Series)
About This Book
Foreword by Patrick D. Miller In this remarkable, acclaimed history of the development of monotheism, Mark S. Smith explains how Israel's religion evolved from a cult of Yahweh as a primary deity among many to a fully defined monotheistic faith with Yahweh as sole god.
Repudiating the traditional view that Israel was fundamentally different in culture and religion from its Canaanite neighbors, this provocative book argues that Israelite religion developed, at least in part, from the religion of Canaan. Drawing on epigraphic and archaeological sources, Smith cogently demonstrates that Israelite religion was not an outright rejection of foreign, pagan gods but, rather, was the result of the progressive establishment of a distinctly separate Israelite identity.
This thoroughly revised second edition ofThe Early History of God includes a substantial new preface by the author and a foreword by Patrick D. Miller.
Catholicism and Christianity (and Judaism and Islam), have the same foundational and essential claims, upon which the entirety of the religion is based.
Trying to prove a non-falsifiable God does not exist is rather difficult. But the construct of monotheism is a softer target.
Argument against monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism (ignoring discussion of the binitarian and trinitarian traditions)
The most foundational belief in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, includes the essential attribute that Yahweh/YHWH/YHVH, God, or Allah, is that "God" exists and there is the only one true revealed God (monotheism) - or monotheistic Yahwehism. As this is the core of the Tanakh (Judaism), Bible (Christianity), and Qur'an/Koran (Islam), questions concerning the source of, and the validity of, this monotheistic Deity belief would raise significant doubt as to the existence of this God, the various Holy Book's validity as the word of God/Yahweh/Allah and to the very foundation of these belief systems. These core scriptural documents also establish the precept and precedent accepting predecessor society/culture holy scripture and documentation of revealed Yahwehism and integrating and propagating core attributes and beliefs (though with some variation and conflict with peripherals). Yet, within the Holy Scriptures of predecessor Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite, and early Israelite (Israel - meaning "may El [the God] preserve") religions/societies/cultures, the evidence points to the evolution and growth in the belief of the monothesitic Yahweh Deity from a polytheistic foundation of the El (the Father God/God Most High) God pantheon. Yahweh (one of many sons of El) was a subordinate fertility/rain/warrior local desert God whom, through a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) as documented in the revealed holy scriptures of these religions and cultures that directly influenced and/or became the Biblical Israelites.
Here are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical essential polytheistic origin and foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> I'd like arguments against the philosophical arguments for God
Depends on the argument. Check out:
If there is a specific argument - consider making a post on /r/DebateReligion or /r/DebateAnAtheist and act as if you were a Catholic, present the argument or claim (with support), and act to counter it using the best apologetics/references/information you have. See what comes up.
> Such as?
The claim and tradition that there is, and only has been, one God and that God is the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Sarah, Rachel, Leah, and Rebecca - the God El, of the El polytheistic pantheon, The Father God, the God Most High. Ohhhhh! not that God but one of the other God's, the God Yahweh/YHWH, a completely different God. The intrinistic polytheism of the older narratives in the Most Holy of Holy's the Holy Bible, which establishes the necessary foundation upon which rests the contingency of latter narratives sure is confusing against the apologetic claim of monotheism and subsequent retconning into canon scripture!
The most foundational belief in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, includes the essential attribute that Yahweh/YHWH/YHVH, God, or Allah, is that "God" exists and there is the only one true revealed God (monotheism) - or monotheistic Yahwehism. As this is the core of the Tanakh (Judaism), Bible (Christianity), and Qur'an/Koran (Islam), questions concerning the source of, and the validity of, this monotheistic Deity belief would raise significant doubt as to the existence of this God, the various Holy Book's validity as the word of God/Yahweh/Allah and to the very foundation of these belief systems. These core scriptural documents also establish the precept and precedent accepting predecessor society/culture holy scripture and documentation of revealed Yahwehism and integrating and propagating core attributes and beliefs (though with some variation and conflict with peripherals). Yet, within the Holy Scriptures of predecessor Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite, and early Israelite (Israel - meaning "may El [the God] preserve") religions/societies/cultures, the evidence points to the evolution and growth in the belief of the monothesitic Yahweh Deity from a polytheistic foundation of the El (the Father God/God Most High) God pantheon. Yahweh (one of many sons of El) was a subordinate local God whom, through a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) as documented in the revealed holy scriptures of these religions and cultures that directly influenced and/or became the Biblical Israelites.
Here are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical essential polytheistic origin and foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
> Any other books or articles that can be recommended?
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
Suggestion for both you and u/AckligJDub...
Learn everything you can about the REAL origins of the bible.
Once you've learned that, your entire world-view will shift, and if you're suffering from fears of "Armageddon" that knowledge I've suggested will totally wipe out those fears.
What I'm going to post is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to modern-day knowledge about the origins of the bible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21vPrlX6Yx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECezMYug8c
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi
https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X
https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949
https://www.amazon.com/King-Manasseh-Child-Sacrifice-Alttestamentliche/dp/3110179946
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2015/11/the-legacy-of-child-sacrifice-in-early-judaism-and-christianity/
Also a few videos on the characteristics of cults:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRBFhMEQFk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO0vPYd9Txw&t=789s
https://www.amazon.com/Cults-Our-Midst-Continuing-Against/dp/0787967416
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygeH85P0THA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB-dJaCXAxA&t=250s
Well, since you've made a massive edit, allow me to correct your error.
Yes, there are numerous examples of the iron age bible lifting wholesale bits of poetry from bronze age Ba'al texts. One example is the famous "lift up your heads, oh gods" which became, nonsensically, "lift up your heads, oh gates" in Psalm 24:7. (Hint: gates don't have heads, at least not the ones in ancient west semitic cities)
This is clear example of outright theft by hebrew priests.
It doesn't mean that the Canaanite god Hadad was ever syncretized with Yahweh. We do know that El was, however.
Sources:
The Early History Of God by Mark S Smith
Stories from Ancient Canaan, Second Edition edited by by Michael D. Coogan and Mark S. Smith
The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman
> but I was brought up believing JW was “the truth” and I still worry I’m not doing what’s right since I no longer study but I do believe in god
You might want to look into the actual origins of the bible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21vPrlX6Yx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECezMYug8c
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi
https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X
https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949
https://www.amazon.com/King-Manasseh-Child-Sacrifice-Alttestamentliche/dp/3110179946
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2015/11/the-legacy-of-child-sacrifice-in-early-judaism-and-christianity/
That's just the tip of the iceberg of the information that's available about the bible.
You might also want to check out a "Names of God" bible, translated from the oldest sources available. This shows that the Hebrew bible writers did indeed worship multiple gods, when one traces the origins of such "titles" as Elohim, El Shaddai, etc. back to their Canaanite polytheist origins.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NOG
>I still love the way they taught the Bible because it felt like a history lesson.
Hah. If only you knew what is really in the bible...
Perhaps these sites will help. You can follow along in your bible, or you can use the translation I strongly recommend, the "Names of God" translation, which has used the very oldest names pulled from the oldest available sources for the bible. Here it is online:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NOG
And you might want to read/peruse the following sources, using that translation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECezMYug8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
More resources: http://www.leighb.com/genesis.htm
http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/cflood.htm
http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion
I think the title page on this site is mis-stated. I suspect it's supposed to read "No Sign of Israel in Ancient Egypt". At any rate, it discusses a portion of the lack of evidence for the "Exodus" - from the viewpoint of the ancient Egyptian histories: https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/in-ancient-egypt-canaan-revisited-without-israel/
There are several good books on the subject. This book refers to scriptures that you can look up in a decent translation of the bible (hence my earlier reference to the "Names of God" translation) and confirm for yourself the traces of polytheism that can still be found in the bible: https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X
Then there's this book: https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949
There's also the Yale online course "Introduction to the Old Testament With Christine Hayes":
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi
That might keep you busy for a while.
The Early History of God - Yahweh and the Other Gods of Ancient Israel: https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X
My review of another one of his books: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/5dvnsy/the_origins_of_biblical_monotheism_israels/
Did God Have a Wife?: https://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Have-Wife-Archaeology/dp/0802863949
You might want to check this one out from a library:
https://www.amazon.com/King-Manasseh-Child-Sacrifice-Alttestamentliche/dp/3110179946
[Continued From Above.]
Can you, and more importantly, will you support your positive claim position(s), present an argument(s) and meet the burden of proof to support your claim(s), and then defend your argument(s) against refutation/criticism? And will you agree to follow some simple debate rules? If the argument fails for lack of credible evidence or supportable argument, and/or for logical fallacies, then the person making the argument never brings up that argument again with anyone. Ever. Additionally the person making the argument must demonstrate that they actually understand the argument(s) being presented - a copy/paste of an argument from someone else is intellectually dishonest if the presenter does not understand it. The definition of words commonly misunderstood, like "theory," will use Wikipedia definitions unless otherwise explicitly stated. Consider these Debate Rules as applicable to all parties when presenting your argument/post. Finally, be aware of these common logical fallacies when presenting your argument/claim/assertion as the use of these fallacies will significantly reduce, or outright negate, the credibility of your argument.
I look forward to your response. If you present a credible and supportable position, via credible evidence, and/or supportable argument that is free from logical fallacies and which can be shown to actually be linkable to this reality, to a level of significance (or level of reliability and confidence) above that of an appeal to emotion, I will consider your message and adjust my religious related worldview accordingly.
If you fail to present a credible and supportable position, then any and all argument(s) that you make that are dependent or contingent upon the above claim(s) will summarily be rejected for lack of foundation, as applicable.
Argument against monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism (ignoring discussion of the binitarian and trinitarian traditions)
The most foundational belief in Judaism, Christianity, Islam includes the essential attribute that Yahweh/YHWH/YHVH, God, or Allah, is that "God" exists and there is the only one true revealed God (monotheism) - or monotheistic Yahwehism. As this is the core of the Tanakh (Judaism), Bible (Christianity), and Qur'an/Koran (Islam), questions concerning the source of, and the validity of, this monotheistic Deity belief would raise significant doubt as to the existence of this God, the various Holy Book's validity as the word of God/Yahweh/Allah and to the very foundation of these belief systems. These core scriptural documents also establish the precept and precedent accepting predecessor society/culture holy scripture and documentation of revealed Yahwehism and integrating and propagating core attributes and beliefs (though with some variation and conflict with peripherals). Yet, within the Holy Scriptures of predecessor Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite, and early Israelite (Israel - meaning "may El [the God] preserve") religions/societies/cultures, the evidence points to the evolution and growth in the belief of the monothesitic Yahweh Deity from a polytheistic foundation of the El (the Father God/God Most High) God pantheon. Yahweh (one of many sons of El) was a subordinate fertility/rain/warrior local desert God whom, through a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) as documented in the revealed holy scriptures of these religions and cultures that directly influenced and/or became the Biblical Israelites.
For ones edification, here are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical polytheistic foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
[Character Limit. To Be Continued.]
> Would you please recommend additional readings on the topic
Some references I have complied concerning the pre-monotheistic worship of pre-/proto-israelites and the God YHWH that I have previously posted.
A copy and paste ....
Would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh with evolution into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> I'm mostly focusing on polytheistic roots of Judaism
Don't mean to butt into this thread, but here are some references to the polytheistic origins of monotheistic Yahwehism.
[copy and paste from a previous posting]
And would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Plus a religious studies class: B425 Ugarit and the Bible; Quartz Hill School of Theology
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> Do you know of any channel that goes into details on this?
Several, and a few single videos from some decent channels, too.
Here in no particular order are the videos that prompted me to do more research into the real origins of the bible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg ...There's a "B" part video, but I like this one the best.
Here's an entire series about the archaeological information and what it reveals about the claims and sacred writings of the Israelite nationalists:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi
Here's one of my favorite channels. I'm linking his playlists; his 3-video playlist about the Book of Jonah is SO enlightening!
https://www.youtube.com/user/brettppalmer/playlists
I would also recommend several books. First of all, the book "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel" is high on my list:
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X
Also "Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel":
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949
Those links will take you to other books which you may find interesting, too.
You might find these articles interesting, too:
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great-1.5392677
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-when-the-jews-believed-in-other-gods-1.6315810
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-jewish-god-yahweh-originated-in-canaanite-vulcan-says-new-theory-1.5992072
You might find the websites that discuss contradictions in the bible useful, too:
http://contradictionsinthebible.com/
Especially this article from that site:
http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/
Then there are these sites:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.leighb.com/genesis.htm
http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/cflood.htm
"Gospel Fictions" by Randel Helms:
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0879755725
Also see "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel":
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X
OP, and anyone else interested, I have complied some references concerning the pre-monotheistic worship of the God YHWH.
A copy and paste ....
Would you like to know more on the essential polytheistic origin of the God Yahweh with evolution into a monotheism? And how this monotheistic claim grew out of it's essential polytheism (a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism) of the many Gods into a claim of only [and always] one God)?
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> Maybe my point isn't clear.
If what you wrote in the above comment is what you meant - then I agree that the point of the original submission statement was not clear. heh. As the original submission statement, at least how I read it, concerned the change (or 'evolution') from polytheism of many tribal-states to a monotheism of the God of Israel (YHWH) as a means to improve or support the cause of the tribe/state/nation of the 'emperor or a warlord in their plans.'
By the way, in case you are interested, there is quite a bit of history and historical assessment to support the 'evolution' or convergence of a large polytheistic Pantheon belief (the 'El' polytheistic pantheon, where El is the Father God/God Most High), and which included the second tier God YHWH/Yahweh, in the pre-/early Israelite societies.
Some homework for you OP :)
"You shall have no other gods before me” is tacit admission that there are other Gods, and that Yahweh is the top God in the polytheistic henotheism. And at the time of the authorship of this verse (Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6) the transition of the inherent polytheism of Yahweh worship in a process of convergence, differentiation and displacement (synthesis and syncretism), which was elevated from polytheism to henotheism (a monolatry for Yahweh; Yahweh is in charge, there are other Gods to worship) to an aggressive monolatrist polytheistic belief (Yahweh is the most important God, there exists other Gods but worship of these other Gods is to be actively rejected) to, finally, a monotheistic belief system (there is and, somehow, always has been, only Yahweh) was not yet complete.
Traces of the foundational polytheistic (many many gods, El is in charge) belief, and it's evolution into a man-driven politically and militarily motivated monolatry for Yahweh (Yahweh is in charge, acknowledgement of other gods) to monotheistic Yahwehism (where Yahweh is and, somehow, always been the one and only god “There is no god but YHWH/Allah”/“You shall have no other gods before Me"), litter the Torah and Old Testament of the Bible which survived editing and redaction. To a lesser extent (as it is based upon already redacted material and with better editing/explicit rationalizations already included) the New Testament and Qur'an also show linkages to this foundational polytheistic belief. Given that the tradition of monotheistic Yahwehism is the essential foundation of the Abrahamic Religions, this falsehood propagates to any/all doctrine/dogma/claims dependent/contingent upon this foundation - rendering the existence of this God, and these religious tenets/doctrine/dogma/"truths", at best, demonstratively invalid; and nominally, morally and culturally reprehensible.
And for evidential support, feel free to peruse the following:
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> I am not trying to have a low effort post, in all honesty,
No worries. But showing your current point of view and/or beliefs allows readers to better understand the context of your question to (hopefully) assist in providing a better contextual response.
Consider, if you want to, editing your original topic submission statement with some of the background you have presented above for all to see (easier).
> If he created galaxies and billions of billions of stars and planets, why should I question some of his reasoning behind things such as the problem of evil.
Blind-faith is not attractive. :(
> I wanted to find more questions and over time, see if I can find answers to them..or not.
Let me suggest a couple of questions (as homework) regarding what is considered an essential and foundational tenet of Christianity, and upon which so much of Christianity is wholly contingent/dependent upon:
Against the history of worship of the God Yahweh, is the construct of monotheistic Yahwehism supportable as an actual historical fact when extra-Biblical scriptures and narratives are including in the history of the God Yahweh?
Another question to consider - using the Bible canon narratives alone, what references to the development of the construct of monotheistic Yawhehism are present to support a hypothesis that Yahweh is part of a polytheistic pantheon of Gods and that Yahweh is not the highest ranked God in this polytheistic pantheon?
Here are some references concerning the history and man-driven development of Yahweh worship:
ere are some physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidential sources documenting the development and growth of monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism from a historical polytheistic foundation of revealed holy scripture to the monotheism of early Biblical Israelites:
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
The conclusion I reached when investigating the basis for my Catholic Christianity (YMMV):
Traces of the foundational polytheistic (many many gods, El is in charge) belief, and it's evolution into a man-driven politically and militarily motivated monolatry for Yahweh (Yahweh is in charge, acknowledgement of other gods) to monotheistic Yahwehism (where Yahweh is and, somehow, always been the one and only god “There is no god but Allah”/“You shall have no other gods before Me"), litter the Torah and Old Testament of the Bible which survived editing and redaction. To a lesser extent (as it is based upon already redacted material and with better editing/explicit rationalizations already included) the New Testament and Qur'an also show linkages to this foundational polytheistic belief. Given that the tradition of monotheistic Yahwehism is the essential foundation of the Abrahamic Religions, this falsehood propagates to any/all doctrine/dogma/claims dependent/contingent upon this foundation - rendering the existence of this God, and these religious tenets/doctrine/dogma/"truths", at best, demonstratively invalid; and nominally, morally and culturally reprehensible.
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0195167686
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949
This site: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/
And especially this article: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/
This site is pretty good: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/biblehistorydaily/
I found these articles from that site very interesting:
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/
Adding these:
The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark S. Smith.
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X
The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts also by Mark S. Smith.
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0195167686
Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel by William G. Dever.
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949
nukeDmoon, step up your game! Just say "no" to low effort posts!
> I used to be christian as well.
And what are you now? And was there a compelling argument that started you on the path to be an ex-Christian? If so, what was it?
Also, what is the most compelling argument you posit to make a Christian (sect dependency??) doubt Christianity?
Join in the debate/discussion you started.
As for me, I don't make any arguments with intent to make a Christian doubt their beliefs. Instead, I encourage them to study the history and basis for the development of Judaism, and from there Christianity, using the Socratic method.
Here is an example: What is the history of the God Yahweh, and worship of Yahweh, pre-Babylon captivity/exile? In orther words, how did the construct of monotheistic Yahwism/Yahwehism develop into what is presented in the Bible and accepted in Christianity?
Here are some references on the growth of monotheistic Yahwehism from a historical polytheistic foundation to the development of the henotheism/monolatry, and then monotheism of early Biblical Israelites (you can make your own determination of the credibility of each reference):
While limited to starting with the Hebrew Bible as a basis, and not addressing much pre-Torah scripture related to Yahweh, the following takes a look at:
While a College Senior Thesis (and the perception therefore of a less credible scholarly/appeal to authority level), the following is a good source of other reference material:
Some of the on-line summaries/arguments which related to the above argument/position are:
A recent discussion in /r/AcademicBiblical, Was Yaweh originally a member of a pre-Judaic pantheon of gods?, by /u/koine_lingua, also addresses the origin of YHWH.
Some potential additional references (which are on my "To Read" list)....
Note: Concerning Karen Armstrong's, A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, a criticism of the book that I have received (and have not yet reread the relevant sections of the book), is that "armstrong spends about half a chapter on this particular topic, and in my opinion, doesn't do a very good job of it. she does stuff like assume that abraham was a real person, and anachronistically apply later theology as if it was some indicative of earlier theology -- late first temple yahweh had aspects of a war god, so early yahweh must have as well. and that just doesn't follow at all."
> You also have teachings who's origin are not necessary Jewish but are Canaanite and mythology based beliefs showing up in Biblical prophesies.
Yup. Been there, done that:
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> It can't be proved either way...
Actually, it can be - at least in the case of the Abrahamic religions and their gods.
You'll notice I used the plural term there - godSSSSSS.
There are actually several gods - deities - incorporated into the bible's forms of worship. You won't learn about this from any Watchtower Society literature, because the Watchtower Society's bible "translations" fail to use the oldest manuscripts and information available nowadays. Plus, it's in their interest to keep average Jehovah's Witnesses from knowing that there are several gods incorporated into a supposedly "one" god, in the bible.
First, "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the YHWH consonants with the vowels of the title "Elohim".
There are two "names" for the Hebrew god, right there. Although if one traces the origins of the name/term "Elohim" back to its CANAANITE roots, one finds that "Elohim" originally was PLURAL, in the Canaanite language & polytheistic belief system.
From: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion
>The Canaanite pantheon was conceived as a divine clan, headed by the supreme god El; the gods collectively made up the elohim.
Then there's the Canaanite patriarchal god "EL" - as in Isra-EL, Beth-EL, Samu-EL, Dani-EL, and so on.
The OLDER Canaanite patriarchal god EL is deeply incorporated into the Israelite/Hebrew culture - and the bible itself.
Also, "EL" and YHWH are NOT the same god...
From: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/are-yahweh-and-el-the-same-god/
>First, the name Israel is not a Yahwistic name. El is the name of the deity invoked in the name Israel, which translates: “May El persevere.”2 This suggests that El was seen as the chief god in the formative years of Israel’s religious practices. In fact, the etiological story explaining the origin of the name Israel occurs in Genesis 35:9-15, where Jacob obtains this name through the blessing of El Shaddai, that is “El of the Mountain.”
>Second, there exist numerous parallels and similarities between descriptions and cultic terminology used for El in the Canaanite texts and those used for Yahweh in the biblical sources (see below). At some point, it is ascertained, the cultic worship of Yahweh must have absorbed that of El, through which means Yahweh assimilated both the imagery and epithets once used of El.
And honey, that's just the tip of the iceberg. You may want to check out these two books which come at this information from two different viewpoints:
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/080283972X
https://toptalkedbooks.com/amzn/0802863949 ...
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From: https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/40zvle/living_between_worlds_between_the_world_of/cz2co52
Also see:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/2x7yvz/meeting_attendance_a_question/coydtmi
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4bjgdr/ive_written_a_small_book_of_my_current_thoughts/d1a88et
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4wcj2x/subreddit_for_christians_who_are_exjws/d66svgx